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Topic I have always wondered about this: Go to previous topic Go to next topic Go to higher level

By lurkingforacure On 2010.12.27 09:04
I have often wondered if I would feel more energetic, less like the tired mom that I am, if I popped a sinemet too...they say everyone's dopamine levels decline with age, so why not? I never have, of course, but boy have I wondered.

Millions of people are told they have PD, a disease whose existence has to be taken on faith since there is no way to diagnose it (and even after death, some PWP do NOT have Lewy Bodies in their brain upon autopsy, and incredibly, there are autopsies of healthy folk who never showed a sign of PD whose brains had them!! So much for the "hallmark" of PD).

But still they tell us, if sinemet makes things better, you have PD, and need to just take your pills and go us...the sinemet wouldn't help if you didn't have PD, now would it? Or, gulp....would it?....

1. Neurosci Lett. 2010 Nov 25. [Epub ahead of print]

L-DOPA reverses motor deficits associated with normal aging in mice.

Allen E, Carlson KM, Zigmond MJ, Cavanaugh JE.

Department of Pharmacology, Duquesne University, Pittsburgh, PA 15282, USA.

We wished to determine whether L-DOPA, a common treatment for the motor deficits
in Parkinson's disease, could also reverse the motor deficits that occur during
aging. We assessed motor performance in young (2-3 months) and old (20-21 months)
male C57BL/6 mice using the challenge beam and cylinder tests. Prior to testing,
mice were treated with L-DOPA or vehicle. Following testing, striatal tissue was
analyzed for phenotypic markers of dopamine neurons: dopamine, dopamine
transporter, and tyrosine hydroxylase. Although the dopaminergic markers were
unchanged with age or L-DOPA treatment, L-DOPA reversed the motor deficits in the old animals such that their motor coordination was that of a young mice. These
findings suggest that some of the locomotor deficits that accompany normal aging
are responsive to L-DOPA treatment and may be due to subtle alterations in
dopaminergic signaling.

PMID: 21111775 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

I'm not really sure what this tells me except that a LOT more people than the acknowledged 30-35% are being told they have PD when they probably do not. So many lives affected. And a LOT of people are making a LOT of money off of people who really may not be "sick". Drug companies, doctors, the whole "disease industry". Makes me kinda sick myself.

By cgold On 2010.12.27 10:04
I hope that you don't consider taking Sinemet without a diagnosis of PD. At a certain point of the disease, the diagnose is very clear based upon tremor, masked face, posture, gait, etc. So, I'm not certain what you are trying to say in your post. True, there are always "snake oil" salespeople trying to make a buck. I am very thankful to the drug companies for developing and bringing to market the array of drugs as well as the hope placed upon each clinical trial and the PWP willing to participate as well as the Neurologists and Movement Specialists focused on treating this disease. I don't know where some of your information is coming from, but I encourage you to particpate in this website as there is some very good information submitted by people trying to cope with each step of this disease. Take care of yourself.

By karolinakitty On 2010.12.27 11:16
cgold.. i don't think lurking was actually gonna take sinemet, but, i think what she is saying is that since all of us lose dopamine as we get older, perhaps there is more to it than just using it for PD. Perhaps lesser amounts, It's all experimental as this article suggests.
I myself have to wonder about what our military is doing. They are trying tests with dopamine on Navy seals to give them better functionality. If this be the case, these young guys having been given dopamine, when their dopamine decreases over time, after they have left this project, will they develop PD or something similar to it????????
Messing with our brain functions can be good and bad. Testing drugs can be a good thing as we have so many drugs and procedures today had they not been tested would not have been developed. Education is a big thing. Analytical, that's me and i am not normal about it, but, i like to try and figure it all out. So this you take it in, chew on it and then spit it out or swallow it......

By lurkingforacure On 2010.12.27 17:24
My point in sharing this was that for over forty years, since sinemet was discovered, doctors have used it to dx people with PD. We are told, take a sinment, if you feel better/symptoms improve, you have PD.

This article tells me that EVERYONE will feel better if they take sinement, regardless of whether they have PD or not. So the "value" of the sinemet challenge test, to me, is now nonexistent. This also makes me question all over again my husband's dx, since the side effects of PD drugs are the symptoms of PD itself! If you didn't have PD before you began taking PD drugs, you will very likely have more and stronger PD symptoms thanks to the PD drugs you have been taking, since you will now be blessed with the side effects thereof.

I'm not saying my guy doesn't have PD, by the way. But this article, from a highly respected institution, does make me wonder.

By karolinakitty On 2010.12.27 20:00
Sorry lurking .. i read other links on this site and read about some experimental use of Sinemet on those without PD....
We have never been given Sinemet period. Not to see if he responds to it or anything. It never has even been suggested. Now as we are further onto the disease i understand why. because some PD plus diseases have no effect or really bad effect when administering levi/carbidopa, it would not have proven anything. Are there folks out there with PD that might not have it? I believe in that 100%.
Today someone posted about sleep apnea, i know in the last year, about 20 acquaintances all of a sudden have sleep apnea. Now is that because there is new testing or is that because it is the latest trend in diseases. I think that is a big risk we take in all the new technologies and testings. Whether it is PD or sleep apnea we run into the issues of is it or is it not. Some things work for one but not for another... such a puzzling world we live in.

By LOHENGR1N On 2010.12.27 23:47
Lurking my friend, You said "This article tells me that EVERYONE will feel better if they take sinemet, regardless of whether they have PD or not. So the "value" of the sinemet challenge test, to me, is now nonexistent."

Part of this is true, it's called mania. Manic behavior is caused by too much Dopamine in ones brain. Hence the feeling better. (This is a problem when treating mania one "feels" so good they don't see why they have to take their medicine as they "feel" great without it).

The value in the Sinemet test is the kind of response to the drug. Not that one "feels" better but moves better. If cogwheeling in the wrist is lessened, more arm swing while walking, the tremor lessens, a number of these little things that Neurologists view upon examination, in the book and movie "Saving Milly" her handwriting responded to the sinemet. It's not a feel better response but more of a mechanical response that's looked for. I hope I've helped restore a little of your view on this method of aid in diagnosing. Take care, best of luck and hang in there.

By lurkingforacure On 2010.12.28 04:26
I guess I am just becoming more cynical with age and increased knowledge! I think the medical industry we have right now is coming up with more and more "diseases" to treat so that more drugs can be sold. There are just too many books out there, many written by ex=pharma careerists, showing this. Not to mention pharma itself, examples of this loathesome behaviour include now recommending the cervical cancer vaccines for ALL BOYS (yes, really)l and the newly-discovered sexual dissatisfaction phenomena apparently experienced by women worldwide, for which, of course, a drug can be prescribed. As one of our neuros put it several years ago when we told him Dynacirc (a blood pressure medicine that in studies was found to have no effect on blood pressure, lol) was being looked at for PD, commented "well, maybe they finally found a use for that drug". Wow.

I know what you all say about the sinemet is true,so don't worry, I'm not going to sneak into my husband's sinemet to make me superwoman, he needs it way more than me, and I don't think I could handle the side effects, lol.

BTW, the kitty I mentioned in a previous post did pass away right before Christmas. She died in her sleep at night, in the home where she was loved and safe and warm. We immediately went to the animal shelter and got a teenage cat off the euthanasia list, he is wonderfully stripey and adorably affectionate despte being labeled unadoptable because of aggression. The only thing aggressive about this guy is his demand for attention, I think we may rename him "PET me"! Anyone wanting or needed a pet should definitely consider the shelters, boy are there some wonderful animals there needing a family.

By Emma On 2010.12.28 05:20
Lurking, I'm so sorry about your beloved cat passing away. I know first hand how hard that can be. I totally agree with you about shelters. Our cat Harley who died last January was a shelter cat that we saved from death row. He was the best cat ever and I take comfort knowing that he had a good life and home where he was treasured and loved. I wish you many years of happiness with your new family member.

By karolinakitty On 2010.12.28 08:32
Boy lurking, could i jump on the drug company bandwagon with you. i won't go into my conspiracy theory about them, docs and insurance companies but in this "education" material I'm working on, when you chart out the list of symptoms for PD drugs and the list of side effects, well...their almost exactly the same.
I myself don't even take anything for a headache unless it is so bad i can't lift my head.
I have always felt that the more drugs, even over the counter, you take the more your body builds up immunity to it. Even when i had gall bladder surgery 20+ years ago, the doc actually yelled at me for not hitting the pump of morphine for my pain. I do have a high tolerance so i don't need a lot.
Sorry about your kitty ... we had one of our dogs get loose and hasn't come back for over a month... we figure a gator got her as there is a swamp nearby. Both her and her sister we got at the shelter as pups. The one that's left was lonely so we just got another rescue dog but she was found by somebody who tried to find the owner. Down here they just dump dogs if they don't work out, it's not what I'm used to. Our new dog doesn't have a chip, and she has heart worm, but, we are getting treatment for that and hopefully she'll pull through with flying colors. She's a sweetheart, but yet a demon seed, gets into everything, she probably was never inside a house to live. She's a beagle, and around here they are primarily hunting dogs and not pets. So a little patience by me and she'll be great.
Glad you got a shelter kitty.....shelter animals are so loving.....

By lurkingforacure On 2010.12.28 16:25
karolina kitty: just a note about your gall bladder surgery, my mom had this also and we have just learned, decades later, that removal of the gall bladder can cause all sorts of problems which can be remedied with over the counter bile salts. I had to go to a special pharmacy to get them, others will try to sell you all kinds of things but you just need the bile salts, plain and simple bile salts. I was on the verge of asking her doc, a colo/rectal specialist, if we could try them when he asked my mom if she'd ever had her gall bladder out....and there we were. He has prescribed a drug for her that sequesters bile salts but my understanding is that removal of the gall bladder actually causes less to be made and put into the place where they are supposed to be, so I don't think his drug will help her much...and in fact, so far it has not. We just got the bile salts, google it and see if it might help you. I have read you should take them even if everything seems fine because problems can take a long time to develop and by the time you realize it, more damage may have been done. This is where my mom is, she should have been taking them all along right after her surgery but alas, her doc was...well, he said nothing about it and we thought everything was done and fine. Ha, the timebomb had just been set. So check to see if you might be interested in this.

And thanks everyone for all the comments about our kitty and new family member, we are actually thinking of going back and getting another from the shelter so he'll have a buddy! And saving two lives makes me twice as happy :) I think there's a special place in heaven for people who are kind to animals, especially those dumped in a shelter who have been written off.

By karolinakitty On 2010.12.28 22:02
thanx lurking .. i know my gram used to take epsom salts for a similar reason, but i never heard of bile slats. I looked it up and think i might try that.....

By lurkingforacure On 2010.12.28 23:10
KK, I was told by the nutritionist that you take the bile salts anytime you eat a greasy food, like cheese, butter, etc. If you just have a dry salad or piece of fruit, no need to take a bile salt tablet. We need the bile salts to properly digest fats, so this is why. Also, I think my mom's bottle of 90 tablets was about fifteen bucks, just FYI.

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